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Men in Relationships, Part II

This posting continues to look at men in relationship, with a special look at men who leave aggressive postings in on-line discussions.

I wrote about a dozen articles for Patch prior to last week’s article on “,” and never had more than a comment or two in response (including my own response to a respondent). Last week’s post, on the other hand, triggered a comparative avalanche.  I want to pause from my initial plan (“Male Compassion” has therefore been postponed until next week) and try to understand what happened:  both the quantity and the content of the responses to last week’s post.

I anticipated getting more responses because I think there is a lot of energy around the whole question of men and women in relationship. It’s been called a lot of things over the years, such as  “the battle of the sexes.” Often times it is a battle, though I prefer to think of it as a creative tension that occurs when two different entities try to meet.  Yes, sparks fly, but we also grow and develop, we make babies and build families and communities, and we learn, through our struggles, how to love someone or some thing which doesn’t look or sound like us.  It is not easy, and that’s why I have spent so much time focusing on the struggle aspect, because love songs and movies portray the easier parts quite nicely. I believe all of us are made better by the struggle, even those of us who think we’ve failed.

Then there’s the content from last week’s response thread. If we’re going to be honest, the more fringe comments appeared to come from men. The easy reaction would be to say “these Neanderthals are just proving the point of men’s problems in relating.” 

I would like to challenge us all to think a little more deeply about it. 

The first thing I want to say is that we all share those same aggressive impulses which were evident in some of the postings.  There is no honest way to say “I’m not like that.” Psychologist Carl Jung cautioned us not to focus only on our light but also to recognize the shadow side of our personalities, the dark impulses we don’t like to let out into the light. If we don’t acknowledge that these exist within us, the darkness we deny in ourselves erupts onto other people or we bring it into our lives in other ways.

I believe what makes online forums so potentially dangerous is their combination of ease and anonymity.  The ease is an artifact of electronic communication:  the speed with which we can hit “send” or “post” and have it appear moments later on a screen for all to see.  There is little time or need for reflection and our darker impulses can find easy outlet. 

I am certain there were angry letters to the editor when snail mail was the only way to communicate, but I bet there were fewer of them because it required putting a piece of paper in a typewriter or writing it out by hand, finding an envelope, locating the address, putting a stamp on it, and putting it in the mailbox.  All of those hurdles slowed down the initial aggressive impulse, and only the more determined angry person would follow all the way through.  There also was built-in gate keeping because an editor simply had to see it before it could be put into print.  For (largely) better and (somewhat) worse, this is no longer the case with online publishing.

The anonymity is the more relevant issue here, in the sense that it touches more directly on the question of relationships.  By definition, anonymity means you and I don’t know each other.  There is no mutuality, no reciprocity, no overt repercussions for how we behave toward each other.  This is similar to the situations in large cities and on the freeways, with their accompanying alienation and road rage.

So to my brothers who responded last week with more aggression and less thought for how it landed on the other side, I would ask you this:  how does it feel to you when you engage in this way?  Does it feel the same way as when you hold your child in your lap, when you confide in your best friend, when someone does you a favor?  It’s really the same relational message I was trying to convey last week. If you learn to pay attention to how your behavior makes others and you feel, you will be getting a valuable feedback mechanism for how to live your life more successfully, whether it be with your wives, your bosses, your children, or your neighbors.  You can blow this off if you like, but communal reality is stronger than individual stubborn opinions.  Dr. Phil does have one line I love:  “How’s that working for you?”

What I have to say in closing might not be politic and might make some more reactive. I want to suggest this:  for some of you the degree to which you are reactive and angry and don’t care about how others feel is the degree to which you have been wounded in relationship.  Someplace along the way some of you learned it is not safe to let someone get close to you or for you to get close to someone else. Frankly, I was once very much this way myself and I still have my moments. So I have some compassion for those who act this way.  But it still doesn’t free you from the responsibility of looking at your impact on the world around you.  If you really want to push people away or have them avoid you, why venture forth at all?

Do you have a question about your marriage or relationship? Ask Josh in the comments below or email him at josh@joshgressel.com.

Josh Gressel, Ph.D., is a couples therapist based in Pleasant Hill, CA. Visit his website at joshgressel.com.

Jose July 25, 2012 at 09:17 pm
Hmmm. No takers. Alley Oop must be at the beach.
Chris Kapsalis July 25, 2012 at 09:27 pm
I've been online posting since 1995 and have seen an equal amount of online hostility and meanness from both sexes. In fact the women on this one AOL cat board were vicous. I use my real name. Only post withit, and perosnally know most of the people I post with here, or a good deal of them. I am far from perfect. I have let my emotions get the best of me here. Riled up. I try to own my mistakes, admit when I was wrong, but stand by the majority of what I gave my opinions on. There is very little I said online I did not mean though. Good and bad.
"The Black Panther of Poetry" July 25, 2012 at 10:03 pm
Interesting but.........
Chris Nicholson July 25, 2012 at 10:29 pm
It's all about context, isn't it? I would hope that no one interacts in the same way with all people in all contexts. Child rearing is not business negotiation, is not political debate at a bar, is not online forums, is not pillow talk with your spouse, etc.
I think roughly hewn strident views (if substantive) are fine for a forum like this, unless they cross the line into ad hominem or content-free hectoring. The "relationship" amongst online forum participants can be akin to amateur boxers sparring for the sport of it. It should be civil and controlled, but need not be tender or loving..... Perhaps my callous views are rooted in a childhood wound that awaits resolution. Hard to say.....
Josh Gressel, Ph.D. July 25, 2012 at 11:35 pm
I have received a few private e-mails from women, thinking they were not invited to respond on the blog -- that this topic is somehow reserved for men. Nothing could be further from the truth. While this particular post is directed toward men, all of us will benefit from as many viewpoints, male and female, as possible.
Josh Gressel
Tom July 26, 2012 at 03:00 am
One illustration used here was "battle of the sexes". To this date the match between top ranked Billie Jean King and way past his prime and unable to beat many men's club members Bobby Riggs. How was/is that considered a victory?
Eileen July 26, 2012 at 03:53 am
Per recorded tennis history, Riggs was the self-styled sexist a**hole who bragged that a woman couldn't beat him - no matter her age - and suffered the consequences.
Tom July 26, 2012 at 01:09 pm
e was an @hole no doubt and he was a self promoter. He knew he could not win but got Billy Jean to take the bait. Jimmy Connors and Johnny Mac were also @aholes and said almost the eact same thing. I notice Billy Jean made NO attempt to silence them, Brave match up indeed.
Sociiety does not treat the gennders as equals. Show me sit com (insert name here) and I will show you the females are smart and the males are dumb (unless the male is gay). A kick in the crotch to a male is somehow funny yet sexual assault is not funny when the victim is female. Females get title nine even though there is FAR less competition to make a collge roster. Females qualify for affirmative action even though there are more females in college than males Females are granted protected status by HR departments diue to state law. btw Riggs did NOT suffer anything, he loved the attention and profit.
X July 26, 2012 at 01:26 pm
Tom - You can't look to sitcoms as an accurate depiction of life. They're meant to be funny so situations are exaggerated & humor is overplayed. For example, most gay men are not effeminate, upper middle class white folks as sit coms would have you believe. Nevertheless, I would agree with you that stereotyping can be quite dangerous.
Tom July 26, 2012 at 01:54 pm
ElectraDaddy, it is not just sitcoms. Watch ANY episidode of americas funnyest videos and some guy will get a shot in the crotch and that video would ONLY be showed if that is where the impact was. Somehow this is deemed as funny.
How is a crotch shot funny in any way, exaggerated or not? Would a man slapping a woman in the face be funny? I think not. We have different standards now and most any depiction against a non protected class (white men) is allowed. This does seep into real life. Today a known homophobe and antisemite will be greeted by the leaders of Chicago: http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/13996951-418/rahm-welcomes-help-from-farrakahn-ignores-anti-semitic-remarks.html
Shirah Bell July 27, 2012 at 04:02 am
I really appreciate what you wrote today Josh! It was very thoughtful and provoking at the same time. It made me stop and think about when I am sarcastic with my husband, why am i doing that, what am trying to communicate. I came up with an answer that I'll keep as a hypothesis for now - I hold in my frustration when he disappoints me because I don't think i have a "right"' to ask for what i want, but it leaks out with sarcasm and only succeeds in proving to him that he was right. I would love to hear if others are taking the opportunity to examine their relationships through the lens you are providing.
X July 27, 2012 at 11:26 am
Tom - People have for generations laughed at situations you described. They also laugh at women who have their dress blown up by a gust of wind or fall into a pool while in their wedding gown. Also, people submit those tapes themselves. That means men are submitting videos of themselves getting hit in the crotch. They find it funny. You might not, but they do.
I'm not really sure the slapping a woman in the face example you've cited is relevant. When these men get a shot to the crotch, it's usually due to a mishap - such as a skateboarding accident or some other event. Slapping a person in the face isn't an accident and as such isn't comparable. I wouldn't classify Farrakahn as a homophobe. I find that word to be rather tiresome and overused. I don't think Farrakahn has a fear of gay people. Farrakahn does endorse discriminatory policies with respect to marriage equality but then again so does our county supervisor. I'd say Farrakahn falls more on the scale of a bigot.
kerri kimbrough July 27, 2012 at 03:29 pm
Hi I just wanted to say thanks and sorry that we as this wonderful comunity of martizans for the agressive post previous, and hopefuly we can get on track to read what you wanted to write in this blog next time. you are quite intersting!!
Tom July 27, 2012 at 06:56 pm
I dont know, maybe I am making this seem overly simple but if you treat each day as an opportunity to put a smile on the face of your spouse should that not work?
Chris Nicholson July 28, 2012 at 12:11 am
I have been encouraging my wife to follow that rule for decades, but to little avail....
Steve Kelly July 29, 2012 at 02:07 pm
the women win if you are married, the house,money and kids. period
Amanda July 29, 2012 at 03:40 pm
Riiiiiight, Steve. Cuz, it's a contest.
Jason July 29, 2012 at 03:55 pm
We live in a society where misandry is now a virtue.
upptick July 29, 2012 at 07:39 pm
Indeed, men in the popular culture are quite often portrayed as extraneous if not moronic. It's quite ironic, then, how so many women are so willing to give up the putain for nada. In previous generations, they demanded commitment. Since the feminist movement has made commitment passe', it has operated to "free" professional women but punish working class women, particularly since so many are willing to breed now without having a man agree to cooperate with raising the kids. And all of us suffer because of the downward spiral of not properly socializing and educating the children. Oh, and one more thing about anonymity -- it permits either brutally honest communication, or complete unadulterated pap....
upptick July 29, 2012 at 07:42 pm
Women get away, kindof, with being sarcastic to men. If a man is sarcastic to another man, he runs the risk of getting smacked in the mouth. When a woman does it to a man, it just erodes the relationship and causing the man to lose a little bit more respect for her each time she does it.
upptick July 29, 2012 at 07:45 pm
Chicago is lost to the gangsters, both street level and the white collar ones alike. If Farrahkhan were white and was spouting his same philosophies favoring white people, he'd be crucified along with the Chick-fil-A dude by the Chicago pols.
Chris Nicholson July 29, 2012 at 09:54 pm
I think it is a contest of sorts. Hopefully both view marriage as a win and the prospect of divorce as a loss. I think there can be a nice equilibrium from EACH spouse believing BOTH that they are benefiting disproportionately from marriage and would suffer disproportionately from divorce. In this sense, perhaps perversely, I don't mind men griping that they will get the shaft in a divorce. Maybe it serves as a deterrent....
Amanda July 29, 2012 at 10:12 pm
Not really, considering that we have a 50% divorce rate.
upptick July 29, 2012 at 10:28 pm
...or just not get married in the first place.
David Smith July 30, 2012 at 01:39 am
WTF is this about anyway? I fail to see the point of part two and it's application to the points raised in part one. I hope the next part will be engaging and encourage reading subsequent parts. Please, speak plainly and avoid the lengthy commentary on the presumed attitudes of those sharing their reactions. What are you seeking to accomplish?
Tom July 30, 2012 at 05:17 am
There is NO reason for a man to get married unless the couple plan on having children. Other than that is seems like a bad contract to enter in to. That being said I married a great woman and have no complaints.
Chris Kapsalis July 30, 2012 at 09:59 am
Maybe a better example would be a woman getting hit in the breasts,or falling and catching her breasts on a table say. Not funny. Nor is getting hit in the balls. It comes down to men are bad and deserve it, and for all the bad things (some men) have done,here is a self inflicted hit in the balls for karma and funs sake. A white man cannot be proud of being a white man, the one and only group not allowed to take pride in what they happen to be. I saw "Proud to be Latino" stickers, hats, shirts, a whole huge display at Walgreens. I am not "white"by the way, a mix of half Portuguese, and two other parts and I look more Hispanic probably than white. But think back to the US census. They wanted to know your age, race, sex and number of such in your home. Why? Why didn't they want to know our character? Our dreams. Our goals. Our needs? Who we were besides what sex, race or class we happen to be? Saying all this I don't lose any sleep over it, but I do think the day of open season on Men should come to an end. Lot's of awesome men you know. As there are lots of awesome women. We focus too much on the bad apples in both groups I think.
kerri kimbrough July 31, 2012 at 12:17 pm
David, AMEN!!!!! Back to the point please!!!
X July 31, 2012 at 02:43 pm
And we let straight people, folks who are clearly non-experts on the matter, vote on marriage rights for gay people? Good grief.

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